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Tråd: BSRT-oppsettet, B230Turbo.

  1. #51
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    If you look at a 16T compressormap, you will see a capacity of about 435 cfm @ 2.0 PR. 435 cfm is almost 30 lb/min. and 2.0 PR is about 0,9 BAR boost in the intake manifold.
    This tells us that at 16T compressor i able to support an engine produsing 300 hp with 0,9 BAR boost and ergo support an engine that flows enough air to support more than 150 hp naturally aspirated.
    D-cam and V-cam is similar and can be viewed as something like a 135 NA hp camshafts. 300 hp turbo divided by 135 hp engine gives us 2,22 BAR MAP = safte up to 1,22 BAR boost.
    A 16T turbocharger is safe for use with a V-cam equipped B230 engine running about 1,2 BAR boost.

    Precision turbo and Turbonetics can not be bothered to produce compressor maps. Americans obviously usually just test their way to find what works for them. Theory and thinking seems to very painfull for large numbers of them so no need for P&T us use loads of money to make compressormaps that most people do not know how to use anyway. Just look at the LS-engine community. Yikes.

    We have made 3,3 BAR boost at about 2800 rpm. on a B230 engine with a turbo having 64 mm turbinewheel inducer, so I do not see the need for a turbocharger with anything smaller than 59 mm turbinewheel.

    The problem with crank horsepower is that it can only be found when the engine is totally free and on its own on an enginedyno which is the optimal solution for engine development. Everything changes when the engine is put into a car where one can only measure two things, wheel / axle torque and rpm when running hot engine coolant and flowing air through bad airfilters, bad intercoolers and small exhaust systems. You see the problem.

    Two local 940 owners have been dynotesting. The DO88 intercooled one did way better than expected and the KLR one did way worse.
    Most people is unaware that when one looks at a turbo engines end results and divide it into; NA engine hp, turbo hp and Intercooler hp, the intercooler is responsible for a larger horsepower increase than the turbocharger boost itself. That is something to think hard about for very long time. A GOOD intercooler that is.

    Story:
    One upon a time I had a B19ATL engine in my car. A friend wanted to buy it and he tested the car. Running 2. gear in overdrive, giving full throttle and deactivate the overdrive at 0,5 BAR boost spun the tires as rpm and boost jumped up. He bought the engine without my expensive and massive intercooler. He bought the engine and added some cheap shit intercooler and it was never the same ever again. Intercooling needs to be taken most seriously if one is interested in power. This is why I promote products like DO88 intercoolers and Turbonetics turbos without getting anything in return for it from anybody. I just do not see the point in people getting bad results supporting greedy bastards selling junk to make a buck.
    A local hero had his Cosworth on the dyno. The owner is fan of stock parts and was positive that the stock intercooler did not rob any horsepower regarless of what we said.
    Just a quick test with some pipes and some hose to connect a universal D088 intercooler gained a lot, about 50 hp if i remember correctly. It was a lot and the owner changed his mind on the spot.

    Do not never, ever cheep out on fuelpumps, wiring for it or on intercoolers.

    The best way to test is to remove parts when on the dyno. If there is no horsepower increase when disconnecting the airfilter or exhaust system, then you have the right parts.

    The dyno graf show a pretty nice setup. A 16T pushing about 1,0 BAR of boost through a GOOD intercooler should be able to double the numbers.

    Hehe, og course it was DV inpired.
    Sist endret av Batland; 24/06/23 kl 21:21

  2. Takk auto660 takket for denne posten
  3. #52
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    Ok bear with me, this is going to be a long one...

    So i was looking into the whole turbine diameter vs backpressure thing. And things really started getting clearer by using the BorgWarner MatchBot:
    https://www.borgwarner.com/matchbot/

    But the thing about the BW MatchBot is that it is designed only for their own products, unless.... You find out that you can simply take the Garrett compressor and turbine map data and put it in there. Even the results seems legit I will be using PSI numbers instead of bar since the MatchBot works with Bald Eagle Freedom units.

    VE data:
    At first the VE data needs to be entered. I based the VE numbers off a dyno run (yup, crank HP, i know... but it's corrected by the dyno itself using driveline losses) that was done with a cleaned up 530 head with an IPD Turbo cam and a MS3
    ECU
    . This was a non-turbo stock B230F setup. And a bit of guesstimation.

    Boost pressure:
    Enter whatever you like but keep in mind that the turbo can't simply spool up to 40psi at 1500rpm, be reasonable.

    Intercooler effectiveness:
    I lowered the default numbers here a few percent according to the tooltip guideliness for standard air-to-air intercoolers, couldn't find any real datapoints for this for any of the aftermarket drop-in intercoolers.

    Intercooler pressure-drop:
    This is an interesting one that kinda surprised me. DO88 actually shares this data about their intercoolers, unfortunately this data has to be extrapolated for higher flow numbers. I've used the DO88 940 AC style intercooler for the data points. Entered them into excel, created a polynomial formula based of that and extrapolated the data. (airflow/pressure never rises linear to each other) This gave a shocking 6.5psi pressure-drop at ~41lb/min of airflow.

    Air filter restriction:
    I've increased these number a fair bit since i'm running a 240 Diesel airbox and a
    MAF
    sensor, it ain't bad but a large pod filter will probably perform better.

    Muffler system backpressure:
    I simply used the intercooler pressure-drop datapoints for this. Unbased numbers for sure, but they don't seem that unreasonable for people that run a 3" system with two mufflers and an over-axle setup. Especially when you add a (high-flow) catalytic converter to the mix.

    Compressor efficiency:
    I based my calculations on the Garrett G25-550. The matchbot calculates the expected airflow, these numbers can be used to find the compressor efficiency for each required datapoint on the compressor map. Please note that the calculated flow numbers of the MatchBot will slightly change when entering these (and other) numbers so things have to finetuned afterwards.

    Turbine efficiency:
    Garrett doesn't give a complete turbine efficiency map for their turbos, but they do give a peak efficiency number. I simply took the default numbers from the Matchbot and gave them a fixed offset (which can be negative or positive) such that the peak number matches the peak efficiency number that Garrett gives. Not ideal but after all it's just an estimation for getting an idea if a turbocharger is suitable for your application.

    Exhaust Gas Inlet Temperature:
    I left the default numbers here. Redblocks have a tendency to have high EGT's so this seems to be at least in the ballpark i think.

    Turbine Expansion Ratio:
    Entering these numbers should be done after all other numbers have been entered. So first do the BSFC and then come back to this section. The turbine expansion ratios have to be finetuned according to the turbine flow map. Both Garrett and BW have them listed on their website for each turbocharger. The trick is here to match the pressure ratio and "turbine corrected flow" in such a way that they fit perfectly on one of the flow lines of the turbine flow map. Which one of the lines depens on which A/R turbine housing you're planning to use.

    BSFC:
    This is a tricky one, the tooltip gives a guideline for where this number needs to be for each datapoint. I kept them within the guidelines but adjusted them a bit based on the calculated engine power from the MatchBot and the typical power curve that's expected from a mildy modified B230 redblock setup. These numbers won't be completely accurate.

    A/F ratio:
    I kept them at the default numbers they are in the ballpark, there is more than enough documentation about which A/F ratio you want to run for your setup if you want to finetune these numbers.

    Now you have to do a little bit of finetuning for the datapoints readen from the compressor and turbine map since these points will shift a bit while entering all the other data and even the efficiency data itself. And now you've got a guesstimation about the suitability of the turbocharger you were eyeballing. The backpressure is also calculated, but this is without the backpressure that is created by the exhaust manifold itself, which will be at least a couple of PSI when using a (ported) 90+ manifold by my estimation.

    One important note about the exhaust backpressure. Since the turbine wheel works by a pressure ratio just like the compressor wheel, the exhaust system backpressure will be multiplied by the turbine expansion ratio. So when you have a turbocharger that runs an expansion ratio of 2.5, a 5psi backpressure from the exhaust system will result in 12.5psi of additional backpressure at the exhaust manifold.

    This is an estimation i made based for using a G25-550 on a ported head with bigger valves and a mild cam:
    MatchBot example

    I hope this can be of use while selecting a turbocharger. The G25-550 seems to be a nice match based on these numbers, but please go ahead and make your own comparisons.

    Another thing to note is that these calculations show that a 22psi boost level gives a far higher compressor pressure ratio than expected because of the intake and intercooler pressure drops. The required pressure ratio rose all the way till 3.1!

    If anyone is interested i can share the excel file for calculating the intercooler pressure-drop.
    Sist endret av auto660; 30/06/23 kl 10:28

  4. #53
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    Nice.
    There are much to learn when using these.

    Now, hopefully, the recomendations in the begining of this thread makes more sense, more clearly I guess.

    We have found that these calculators usually go red when we hit them with our goals or achievements, so I dont use them as much as I used to anymore.

    Just try 3,3 BAR boost (48 psi) at 3000 rpm on a B230 engine, 2,6 BAR boost on a 2,0L Cosworth engine an 2,8 BAR on an Nissan SR20DET engine.

    The last red dot on the compressormap indicates about 420 lb/min = 420 hp. Divided by MAP to get about 150 hp which seems resonable for the setup.

    Most importantly we look at the suggested turbine side requirements, 64 mm turbinewheel in a large T4 size divided 0,92 turbinehousing or a 63 mm turbinehwheel in a small T25 size divided A/R0,85 turbinehousing.
    We can reed this as turbine wheel size is waay more important than turbine housing size.

    Garrett G25 turbine wheel is 54 mm. Even if one argues that the turbinewheel is brand new and hyper efficient, If one removes it completely, the exducer hole out of the turbine housing is still to small for a vintage 2,3 L 8V engine.

    Two of our rules of thumb is:

    1.
    Work hard to limit the boost pressure drop to 10% of the boost pressure. It is way more important than you think.
    This means Cosworth RS500 GR.A induction kit in the intake side of the turbo and no more than 1,65 BAR boost out of the turbo whe running 1,5 BAR boost in the intake manifold. I have tried to tell people for many years, just one boost gauge is not enough.

    2. A 3" full exhaust system is capable of building 0,5 BAR pressure in the downpipe surprisingly easily. Do not ever use anything smaller.
    Sist endret av Batland; 30/06/23 kl 10:47

  5. #54
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    Flott mulighet til god turbo hvis man kan fikse seg et turbinhus

    https://www.finn.no/309392462

    Sent from my Redmi Note 7 Pro using Tapatalk

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    Hehehe; du såg den du også ja?

    Sjelden mulighet med ett helt uvanlig 55/71 mm kompressorhjul (Trim 60 = fast spool, high flow) og som vi ser en seriøs, genuin anti-surge kompressorkåpe.
    Perfekt til alle dem som ikke vil eller ikke orker å dreie FK-stemplene sine til lavere kompresjonsforhold og vil heller hente effekt via turtall med en velportet 530 topp og BSRT5+ kam. .
    Enkel å oppgradere til billett er den også. https://www.ebay.com/itm/304402162283

    Jeg har turbinhus med T3 flens og integrert wastegate som passer. Byttes kun i følgende: https://www.turboshop.se/en/centrumd...pp-a-volvo-240

    Så har man jo denne favoritten som har samme utfordring med turbinhuset og som er bedre egnet for dem som har lavere kompresjonsforhold fordi de skal kjøre riktig hyggelig ladetrykk.

    https://www.finn.no/bap/forsale/ad.h...kode=309397447
    Sist endret av Batland; 04/07/23 kl 09:33

  7. #56
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    Følger stadig med på finn

    Hadde det vært mulig å benyttet seg av gm4 turbinhuset slik som irx450 turboen gjorde? Passer kanskje på penta turboen og s252sx-e turboen. Eneste jeg la merke til var at s252sx-e turboen muligens har skade på turbinhjulet. Vet ikke hvor mye det har av betydning.

    Siden vi først var innom litt snakk om custom turboer kom jeg over denne på AliExpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004756856574.html

    Kanskje en fin oppgradering til en sliten t3 turbo?

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    Sitat Opprinnelig postet av Schoopp Vis post
    Følger stadig med på finn

    Hadde det vært mulig å benyttet seg av gm4 turbinhuset slik som irx450 turboen gjorde? Passer kanskje på penta turboen og s252sx-e turboen. Eneste jeg la merke til var at s252sx-e turboen muligens har skade på turbinhjulet. Vet ikke hvor mye det har av betydning.

    Siden vi først var innom litt snakk om custom turboer kom jeg over denne på AliExpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004756856574.html

    Kanskje en fin oppgradering til en sliten t3 turbo?
    Samme her.

    Det burde være en mulighet, men jeg kan ikke garantere at det er "bolt-on" uten noen form for tilpassning. Jeg har noen IRX450 turboer og typisk nok så er de ikke identiske, det er faktisk tildels betydelige forskjeller mellom de første og de siste utgavene.

    S252SX-E turbo har turbinhjul med 70 mm stordiameter som er 6 mm større enn IRX450 turbinhjulet.

    Helt klart en mulighet, men utfordringen er at både turbinhus og kompressorkåpe Må maskineres og tilpasses disse hjulene. Da flyger pengene.
    Jeg tenker derfor at hvis man har ønske om å forsøke seg på en Gt32 turbo laget av kinesium, så er dette en uvanlig fin mulighet:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...d=1Np6JBeHagAK

    Hvis man er fornøyd med funksjon og sluttresultat og ønsker en kvalitetsturbo som holder, så trenger man bare å kjøpe seg en ekte Garrett CHRA som koster en brøkdel av en komplett Garrett GT3271 turbo.

  9. Takk Schoopp takket for denne posten
  10. #58
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    I finally got around to put my car on the dyno today for polishing the MegaSquirt tune and producing some power numbers. These are crank-hp numbers from an eddy-brake dyno with rolling-resistance correction. Fuel was LPG this time, petrol torque and horsepower would typically be 5~10% higher. The T-cam carried on better than expected, it matches quite nicely with the ported 46/38 530 head. Turbo spoolup was a bit slow down low due to boost control shenanigans.
    Dyno Graph

    The power numbers themselves (263HP/402NM) aren't that impressive on their own but the wide powerband is better than expected, having 250hp+ from 4800rpm all the way till 6800rpm. Exactly what i was looking for with this setup. Now i'm kinda curious what this setup would do with a V-cam, bigger turbo, 3" exhaust system and a better intake manifold.

  11. #59
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    Congrats.
    That sounds pretty nice initinally.

    Du you have a printout of the colums of the raw numbers that the grafs are based on?
    You know; RPM, WHP, torque, boost.
    Crank horsepower derived from the horsepower at wheels often make the engine look more rev happy than it truly is

    403 Nm / 190 Nm = about 1,2 BAR boost at 3500 rpm and so about 125 flywheel hp from "the theoretical NA engine". Quite a lot for a T-kam I think, so well done.

  12. #60
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    Sitat Opprinnelig postet av Batland Vis post
    Congrats.
    That sounds pretty nice initinally.

    Du you have a printout of the colums of the raw numbers that the grafs are based on?
    You know; RPM, WHP, torque, boost.
    Crank horsepower derived from the horsepower at wheels often make the engine look more rev happy than it truly is

    403 Nm / 190 Nm = about 1,2 BAR boost at 3500 rpm and so about 125 flywheel hp from "the theoretical NA engine". Quite a lot for a T-kam I think, so well done.
    I've done a new power run on RON98 petrol yesterday. (280HP/422NM) The power numbers on petrol are a couple percent higher when compared to the previous run on LPG, as expected. This time the correction curve is also on the graph, it compensates for the drivetrain lossses and tyre/roller friction losses. It's a double roller dyno so that might give some additional rolling resistance when compared to a single roller dyno. Mixture was lambda 0.78~0.81 and timing was at 18 degrees up top. (or 19, i'll have to look it up in the tune to be sure)
    Petrol dyno graph

    The torque and power curve shape seem to match the
    MAF
    flow measurement nicely when i look into the MS3 logs. This was with 1.25bar of boost which tapered off from 6000rpm to about 1.15bar at 6800rpm. The turbo is clearly the limiting factor here in terms of airflow since the wastegate duty cycle rises from ~65% at 6000rpm all the way to 85% at 6800rpm whilst still not holding target boost pressure, the T-cam still isn't running out of steam in the ported head. If you want the exact boost/
    MAF
    flow numbers i can look up the
    ECU
    log again and make a graph of it.

  13. #61
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    Thank you for sharing.
    Yes, this was more like expected.
    280 hp @6100 rpm minus the added about 50 hp from rolling resistance = 230 whp / 2,25 BAR MAP = 102 WHP from the theoretical NA engine.
    About 275 hp at 5000 rpm minus the about 32 hp from rolling resistance = 242 whp / 2,25 BAR MAP = 107,5 whp from the theoretical NA engine which is as expected.

    According to a guy that calls himself a Dynosour, airflow through an engine always increases with rpm, even when power drops off.
    If it does not, there is valvefloat.
    Sist endret av Batland; 12/07/23 kl 13:42

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    DW Autokonsult.se kan livemappe LH2,4: https://dwautokonsult.se/guider/volvo-lh-2.4-chip

    100% NØDVENDIG for dem som har oppgradert strømforsyningen og jordingen til original eller oppgradert bensinpumpe, samt kjører to stk. luftfilterbokser med 2 stk. LMM samt Siemens #961 , 630 ccm dyser og har turbotrimkam, større turbo og som har kompsenket motoren til korrekt nivå til dagens bensin.


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    Sist endret av Batland; 18/09/23 kl 14:20

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    Bare jeg som savner turbokart fra Turbonetics?

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    Sitat Opprinnelig postet av JK95 Vis post
    Bare jeg som savner turbokart fra Turbonetics?
    Absolutt ikke.
    Eldre Turbonetics turboer har compressorkart, men så ble vel Turbonetics oppkjøpt av Precision (som åpenbart har en helt voldsomt mye bedre selger-gruppe) som aldri har tatt frem ett eneste kompressorkart.
    Det samme gjelder de aller fleste andre. Garrett, Borg Warner og Xonarotor skiller seg ut her.

    Løsningen blir å sammenligne kompressorkartene til Garrett GT med GTX og deretter overføre den kunnskapen til eldre Turbonetics kompressorkart i aktuell størrelse.

    GARRETT GT3071R vs GTX3071R er ett godt og tydelig eksempel.



    Men det råeste og sannsynligvis mest reelle sammenligningen blir mellom prestasjonene fra ett gammelt støpt 6+6 47/60 mm T3 style kompressorhjul fra GT2860R turboen med ett moderne billett 10+0 kompressorhjul fra GTX2860R turboen med samme diametre. Turbontics sine TNX C15 hjul er litt større, ikke mye, men akkurat nok til at kapasiteten nok er økt ytterligere.



    Her er påstanden at man går fra ca. 350 hp (35+ lb/min) ved 2 BAR MAP trykk til over 400 hp (40 + lb/min.) ved over 3 BAR MAP trykk.



    Påstandene her er så godt som identiske til det Turbonetics sier her:

    Sist endret av Batland; 20/09/23 kl 12:15

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    Da er det funnet noe "kjøtt på beinet" i forhold til post 1.

    Med utgangspunkt i Turbonetics C15 TNX 52/57 turboen ble det tatt frem en drop-in utgave med custom turbinhus til Ford Mustang 2,3L Ecoboost motoren.
    Denne Custom Mustang turboen går under navnet "Precision NX2" og prisen er i nabolaget 5-doblet i forhold til tilbudet som Turbonetics kjører på sine C15 TNX turboer for tiden.

    https://turboneticsinc.com/store/ind...product_id=781

    https://www.full-race.com/precision-...-turbo-upgrade



    Dyno resultat:


    Sist endret av Batland; 25/10/23 kl 08:17

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    Utviklingen går sin nådeløse gang. Turboneitcis er nå utsolgt for de gode kandidatene som var på utrolig godt tilbud.

    I påvente av en eventuell 54 mm turbo, er det for øyeblikket denne 58 mm BW-turboen som er det beste valget for dem som har fulgt oppskriften i denne tråden og som også har ambisjoner om å "lade litt". Ta gjerne en titt på det imponerende kompressorkartet.
    https://www.theboostlab.com/s258-sx-r-supercore/
    Sist endret av Batland; 27/01/24 kl 12:49

  23. Takk Bergstaden, HansOla takket for denne posten
  24. #68
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    Kolossalt potensiale på en 58mm i forhold til sx257e!

    Sent fra min M2007J20CG via Tapatalk

    1993 Volvo 940 turbo b230ft - Bruksbil under oppgradering
    1986 Volvo 740 GLE - Bruksveteran
    1982 Volvo 242 16V-turboprosjekt
    1981 Volvo 245 b19 - Står på vent
    1979 Volvo 244dl b19 -Veteranprosjekt

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    Sitat Opprinnelig postet av HansOla Vis post
    Kolossalt potensiale på en 58mm i forhold til sx257e!
    Helt klart imponerende.
    Her litt mer info. satt opp slik jeg foretrekker det.
    https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...78569704279360
    Sist endret av Batland; 29/01/24 kl 12:58

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  27. #70
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    Tenk det da, 625hk potensiale på en 175hk b230

    Sent fra min M2007J20CG via Tapatalk

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    1986 Volvo 740 GLE - Bruksveteran
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    1979 Volvo 244dl b19 -Veteranprosjekt

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    Sitat Opprinnelig postet av HansOla Vis post
    Tenk det da, 625hk potensiale på en 175hk b230
    Det er riktig tenkt og da kan man bruke fantasien og se for seg hvordan Gr.A racingen hadde vært.
    Med denne turboen og ett ok datasprut, så skulle nok RS500´ene fått prøvd seg ja.

    Her Andy Rouse sin motor fra sin mestvinnende RS500 Gr.A Cosworth analysert slik jeg analyserer alle resultater for å finne ut hva "Den teoretiske sugemotoren" presterer.


    Her Turbo Thomas sitt resultat:


    Slik ser det ut når RS500 turboen og SX-R258 turboen står på hver sine ca. 170 hk +/- motorer. Begge har 58 mm inducer.
    Sist endret av Batland; 05/02/24 kl 20:37

  29. Takk HansOla takket for denne posten
  30. #72
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    Dette har vi ventet på.

    Oversatt med Google Oversetter.
    Enda flere BorgWarner SX-R 58mm + SX-E-300 72mm turbomodeller klare for markedet.
    Vi har ett stort lager av de nyeste Borgwarner SX-R turboer, som har en videreutviklet, fin kompressordel med økt kapasitet i forhold til tidligere og som er bygget med turbinhus med integrert wastegate i litt andre utgaver enn før som bl.a T3 singel eller T3 labyrint flens og med flere forskjellige muligheter for forskjellige ladetrykksnivå. Vi kan tilby mange forskjellige turbinhusalternativer som T3, T4, V-båndshus m.m.
    Vi har også alt nødvendig tilbehør på lager og kan også renovere + oppgradere din eksisterende Borgwarner performance turbo med SX-R kompressorhjul.
    Kjempegøy med intensiteten i vår populære nettbutikk for øyeblikket og vi kjemper videre for å kunne publisere flere nyheter til dere alle.
    https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/volvoturbo
    Sist endret av Batland; 12/02/24 kl 20:27

  31. Takk Bergstaden takket for denne posten
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    Hvis man har trimmet motoren sin såpass at den leverer 350 hp med 1,0 BAR ladetrykk, da ser vi at SX-E257 er ett perfekt valg helt opp til ca. 2,2 BAR ladetrykk for 560 hp.

    På den samme motoren er SX-R258 det rette valget for dem som skal kjøre ca. 2,5 BAR ladetrykk for 625 hp.

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